Tuesday, October 11, 2005

Happy Holidays!!

From the St. Petersburg Times:

"TAMPA - There may be no day off next school year for the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur. Also on the chopping block are vacation days for the Christian faith's Good Friday and the Monday after Easter.
After considering a request to recognize a Muslim school holiday, the Hillsborough County School Board next week will discuss ending student days off on all religious holidays, whether they be Christian, Jewish or Muslim.
The only religious holiday not affected will be Christmas, which occurs during the school district's winter break."

Now.

I hope that all of you who are laboring tirelessly for the cause of complete seperation of Church and State are happy.

This is the logical conclusion of a policy of complete seperation of Church and State within a culture of such diversity as the United States, when the public Schools are controlled and administered by the Government.

And if you think that Christmas will not be affected, just wait a few years. They'll get around to that.

Think about the Holidays that are important to you and your family.

Christmas?

Thanksgiving?

Easter?

Yom Kippur?

Ramadan?

These are Religious holidays. If we completely seperate Religion from Government, then we cannot recognize ANY of these Holidays in the Government Schools.

Is this what we really want?

Is this what the framers of our Constitution really wanted?

I still contend that the First Ammendment to the Constitution was inserted in order to prevent the Government from requiring all citizens to observe one specific form of religion, not to prevent religious people from affecting public policy, nor to restrict the practice of religion from public view.

This Country was founded upon Christian principals, and the Founding Fathers (with a few exceptions) had a very strong belief in God, and wanted to follow the teachings of the Bible, and the leadership of God in their decisions and policies.

Aproximately 77% of the American People believe in God, in one form or another. To ignore this fact would be a colossal mistake.

The phrase "Seperation of Church and State" never appears in our Constitution.

Please, People, let's think about the road we are starting to go down here...

Let's not destroy all traces of American culture in the name of diversity and fairness...

Let's not lose all of our National Holidays for the sake of this argument...

36 comments:

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Erudite Redneck said...

Doesn't make me happy. Doesn't make me terribly upset, either. One, for most people these holidays ceased being "holy days" a long time ago. Two, for those who do consider them actually special, there is nothing keeping them from observing them by staying home anyway. Tres, a local school board can do what it wants, as far as its own patrons will let it. Rural school districts in eastern Oklahoma close down for the beginning of deer season.

--ER

Mark said...

It's not just the Government that are minimizing the importance of Holy days. It's the culture, or rather, lack of culture.

I noticed a few years ago, that people are saying Thanksgiving is a day set aside to give thanks, but they seem to be a bit confused as to whom to give thanks, and why.

Son of Lilith said...

I think a more sensible solution would be allowing students "observation days" that they can take. With a note from their parents, they can take a day off from school to observe religious holidays without them counting against their usual "sick days." If schools will no longer close on religious holidays then this practice, or something similar, should be implemented.

On a side note, I don't see why Thanksgiving would be included under the category "religious holidays." I never thought of Thanksgiving as a "religious" holiday, and if it is religious then it is all-inclusive seeing that most religious from Christianity to Wicca to Buddhism stress humility and gratitude.

Back to the point though: I don't see this happening so I'm not worried. I can understand the logic of being fair across the board, but I do think that this method is a bit extreme. No more holidays from school? The students will go insane. They will rebel. Religion or not, the students are used to holidays, as are the parents, and taking them away would be a very bad decision.

So add a few more for fairness sake, tack on a few more days at the beginning and end of the year to make up for the lost time. What's wrong with doing that?

Anonymous said...

Yet another reason to implement a voucher system, so everyone can afford private school if that is where they would like to send their children. I myself am a fan of home schooling. I do not want our government teaching my children religion or evolution it is not their job. Their job is to protect me and my family so that we can have the freedom to instruct and raise our children the way that is best for them. The people in our country need to stop looking to Uncle Sam to be a pastor, a teacher, a father, and a provider. Let the government focus on protecting us, get rid of all of these extra tax wasting, money eating, programs, and take responsibility for ourselves. “Responsibility for myself? Why would I want to do that?”
-chad

Mark said...

Brandon, you say, "I don't see why Thanksgiving would be included under the category "religious holidays." I never thought of Thanksgiving as a "religious" holiday, and if it is religious then it is all-inclusive seeing that most religious from Christianity to Wicca to Buddhism stress humility and gratitude."

Let me answer that. Abraham Lincoln, who established Thanksgiving day, said this in his proclamation:

"I do therefore invite my fellow-citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a day of thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens."

That is why Tug included it as a religious holiday. I think.

Tug, I wrote my post today on the ID debate. Check it out.

CrystalDiggory said...

One of the high schools in my town do almost just what you suggested, MBR. The kids have so many personal days and can use those to observe religious holidays if they choose. They haven't had Good Friday or the Monday after Easter off in years.

Son of Lilith said...

Thanks Mark. I'm not up on the History of Thanksgiving. I would see now why it would be a religious holiday, though I still feel that its meaning is universal. That's just a personal reflection though.

alaletos said...

I share your concern Tug. The reason it's so easy to brush these things off Is this.

They are all happening a little bit at a time. So that by the time we are miles away from what this country was founded on no one will notice.

For instance if someone walked in your home and took away your bible and said that it was outlawed. Most everyone would be pissed. Right??

But its much sneakeir than that. first someone makes it "unconstitutional" to have prayer in school., Then they make it so if you want to celebrate a holiday in accordance with your beleifs than you have to miss school.

Sure it doesn't sound like such a big deal. Now. but when we look back and realize how far it's come. it will.

all this and more. In the book of Revalation.

tugboatcapn said...

It's the frog in the water pot scenario, AJ.

If you throw the frog into the hot water suddenly, he will jump right back out.
However, if you put him into the pot and then slowly turn the heat up, he will still jump out unless you put a lid on the pot.
As long as the frog has any freedom, you can't boil him.

I just wonder how much hotter it has to get before we begin to jump out of the pot...

Or is the lid already on?

tugboatcapn said...

Mmmm...

Frog legs...

Erudite Redneck said...

How's your female hair loss issue, Tug? :-)

--ER

tugboatcapn said...

ER, I think that it is about time that someone started a female hair loss website...

The last thing we need is a bunch of hairy females running around...

Mark said...

Yeah, Tug, one Janet Reno is enough!

dead to self said...

well since im in a public school setting i can kind of relate. but since were only alowd to miss 10 and a half days before we fail the year it would be kinda hard to take off for a religious holiday.and it does seem that the goverment is slowly pulling us away from the foundation this country was built on. now the constitution was written by christian men so i cant understand how were going to seperate the goverement and religion when its the very legs this country stands on.
And as to mark i think that the goverment very much influences the culture or lack there of, and in turn steers us away, and as time gos by we forget the true meaning of things. just like christmas very few people celebrate is as christ's birthday instead theyve been lied into believing in santa claus and its all about getting gifts. easter has become about a rabbit and thanksgiving does everything short of idolizing a turkey. i think this is because if the true meanings behind these holidays were brought out more people would have to see that the country they live in was founded on christianity,and the fact is people dont wanna see or believe that.
sorry so long.

Erudite Redneck said...

Must. Be. Kind. To. The Youngster. ....

Naaah.

Yes, we should emphasize the earliest religious significance of December 25: the religion of light and darkness surrounding Mithras, the Persian sun-god, which developed in Rome alongside Christianity in the 200s and 300s -- and was celebrated on December 25.

NOT.

--ER

Son of Lilith said...

Good call ER.

Most people tend to forget that the Christian holidays are converted non-Christian holidays, and if you want to argue signifigance than those religions have just as much right as Christians.

Also, it bothers me that people repeatedly go back to the religious beliefs of our forefathers. True, many of them were Puritan, but many of them were also Agnostic and Deists. In fact, the ideas of the Enlightenment had just as much of an influence on the concept of the Declaration of Independence as Christian values.

As far as the meaning of the First Amendment, it was written to avoid the government from making a national church. While I admit Chrisitanity has not been made the "official" religion of America it does seem that Christian values and beliefs (or at least a specific interpretation thereof) dictate our politics, especially since Bush took office. I personally see this as a subtle way of establishing a national church.

I know that most Americans are Christian; I myself was raised in a Christian home and consider myself a follower of Christ (though an admittedly unorthodox one.) I think that students of ALL religions should be able to observe their holidays. I only see this happening one of two ways: either give more holidays to reflect the holidays of several religions or allow students personal days for religious observance. Make it so that they won't have to use their regular absentee days. I know my jobs differentiates between sick leave and persoanl leave, so why can't schools? That way nobody's rights are infringed.

Toad734 said...

Ramadan lasts an entire month; do you really think kids should get off for an entire month?

Christmas has become cultural, like Thanksgiving and the 4th; it isn't really a religious holiday any longer. My Dad and I both celebrate Christmas but neither of us believes that there is a God.

That is like saying you can't celebrate the 4th of July if you don't believe in Bush's war in Iraq.

So yes, I am happy now; kids these days are stupid anyway, they need more time in school.

Son of Lilith said...

I'm wondering--to anybody's knowledge do other religions have private schools much like Christianity does? I know that there's none where I live.

I think Toad has a good point about the holidays being more cultural than religious. Of course by cultural I think "commercialized." The number of people who actually OBSERVE their religious holidays are probably in the minority.

Erudite Redneck said...

Re, "In fact, the ideas of the Enlightenment had just as much of an influence on the concept of the Declaration of Independence as Christian values."

YES! Absolutely. And those earliest humanists were Christians also -- humanist as in man, as the top of God's creation, is the measure of all things (as opposed to man, NOT God, is the measure of all things). Once again, things not starkly black-and-white!

--ER

alaletos said...

In response to Toad.

Kids these days are smarter than they have ever been. Thats the problem. We let them get away with murder.

They need structure and discipline. But mom and dad are either to drugged, or drunk or just don't care. They let it all slide thats why kids are so messed up.

P.s. even if you don't believe in God. He believes in you.

rich bachelor said...

And-even if a representative amount of the Founders were Christian, we now live in a nation that is not entirely Christian.
M.-yep, there's private Muslim schools at least, in places like England where wealthy people like The Artist Fomerly Known As Cat Stevens live (he started one). I imagine in theocratic states like Iran, they're all religious schools, no matter what.
And yes, wouldn't it be great if we really honestly honored the original version of every one of our holidays? Blood would run in the streets for a fair amount of them, and public sexual intercourse for a lot of the rest.
I'm not sure that this thing you write of has anything at all to do with the Foundation Clause (which never exactly says the words 'seperation of church and state', but outlines it, just the same), Tug.
I'm imagining that as the charter school fans in this country make it more and more likely that I'm going to be paying taxes to support religious schools, the public schools districts are going to try ever more desperate attempts to make themselves seem efficient. Like this.

rich bachelor said...

And to the anony at the top; yes, I have recently misplaced a female rabbit...

Son of Lilith said...

We could only hope that it would be the more peaceful, Christianized celebrations of the Winter and Spring Solstice that would be observed bachelor, but I see your point.

dead to self said...

to:the press i should feel so priveliged to of been instructed on christmas by some one so much wiser and older in years. :)
oh and toad ...you slightly amuse me.

Erudite Redneck said...

Hey, Dead. You got that older part dead-on right! :-) Come over to my place for even more wisdom and ... age ... !!

--ER

Toad734 said...

RE: Dead to self:

No I don't believe this was founded as a Christian nation. The 1st three European settlements were all founded on commerce and conquest, not religion. The US Constitution, our nations most important legal document, never once mentions God, Christ, Jesus, The Bible, or Christians.

If they were trying to build a Christian nation don't you think they would have mentioned one of those?

dead to self said...

hey toad go farther back in your history book this nation was founded by christians fleeing religious persecution.and as for the constitution the religioun of that day was chrisitianity they didnt think forward and see the world falling apart and 3000 different religions pop up!

Erudite Redneck said...

Dead, due. You need to do a lot more readin' of your own nation's history. And the history of religions. Seriously.

--ER

Son of Lilith said...

Dead to self, ER is right.

First of all, this nation was not FOUNDED by Christians escaping religious persecution. They were the first large group to SETTLE but America was not a nation for a good while. This nation was founded Washington, Adams, Franklin, etc., etc. some of which were Christian and some of which were not.

And Christianity was not the only game in town at the time of our nation's founding. Most of those "3000 other religions" were already in existence and did not "pop up" out of nowhere just recently. In fact, many of them are older than Christianity.

Dead, let me give you a word of advice. Internet debaters will rip you open when you don't know your facts, but they will ESPECIALLY rip you open if you are YOUNG and don't know your facts.

dead to self said...

then explain the facts to me i have no problem learning, just a problem being bashed. plus my age should mean nothing if i posted as a 50 year old would i be treated any different!?

Erudite Redneck said...

Dead,

It's not young age that riles me. It's arrogant ignorance. It's presumption. It's an attitude that says you're an expert and that is dismissive of anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Don't look to the Internet for your facts -- not unless you really know how to use it, and then only to fill in gaps. There is probably a library in your town. Use it.

Waiting for others to enlighten you will leave you at the intellectual mercy of others -- and get you nowhere in the end.

I think I did bash you, and I apologize. But it wasn't your age. It was everything above IN LIGHT of your age.

Take ol' M. Brandon here. He's a pup, too. But he doesn't come across the way you do.

--ER

Son of Lilith said...

Dead,

You seem to be very religious. Let me remind you that the Bible speaks of pride coming before a fall. It would be prudent to humble yourself a tad and to follow ER's advice: don't wait for people to give you the facts; find them yourself.

dead to self said...

To: thepress. arrogant iggnorance well first id like to apoligize for coming off as arrogant,and as far as being dismissive when someone disagrees i dont dismiss them i just look for them to back it up.unlike me i thought i was backing up my post but as you guys showed me my ingormation was wrong so again i apoligize. Now to mbr i wouldnt say religious the ones who persecuted jesus the pharisees were religious going by strict laws and code im a christian which is simply being a follower of christ and Gods word. Pride before the fall...i apoligize for coming off as a know it all or to proud. so that my humbling ill be back for more later:)

Son of Lilith said...

Dead, you're a much better person than some bloggers I've ran across.

You're right, religious may not be the best word though.

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