Here is my post for tonight...
Pat Robertson.
Amen.
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Every Decision You Make In Life Boils Down To These Three Questions..... What Do You Want? What Does It Cost? Can You Afford It?
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- tugboatcapn
- Reformed Truck Driver, Family Man and Recreational Political Commentator. I love a good argument, so if you argue with me, you had better have one.
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66 comments:
There was a time I would have agreed with you on that. There have been several despots around the globe and over the years that could certainly have used a good whacking. But it just isn't good policy to kill people or start wars because they may or may not be a threat to us at some point in some theoretical future.
Cops don't arrest people because they might commit a crime later in the day. Well at least they aren't supposed to. Even criminals that run other countries should be protected by the laws of humanity until they become an actual threat.
And yes, Bush lied. When he went before the country with his State of the Union address and said Iraq was a direct military threat to the citizens of this country it was a lie because Iraq did not pose a military threat to these borders.
I don't like Pat Robertson. I never have. I don't think he much resembles a true Bible believing Christian.
That's a stretch, Carrier.
I will do some research to see if I can find an instance where President Bush said that Iraq directly threatened our borders, but I don't remember him ever saying that.
What I do know is that Saddam Hussein was paying the families of suicide bombers $25,000 if they killed Americans anywhere in the world, and I assume that that applied if they killed us on our soil.
Crime and Terrorism are two totally different things. If we continue to take a totally RE-ACTIVE rather than PRO-ACTIVE aproach to dealing with Terrorism, then innocent people will continue to die. You have to prevent Terrorism. You can not punnish or prosecute a suicide bomber.
If someone is breathing threats and slaughter against Americans, and has the power to carry out those threats, Then I have no problem with surgically removing that person. It sure is cheaper (both financially and in humann lives) than a 200 billion dollar war that would destroy infrastructure and kill civillians in another country.
I would have thought that the Left would be all over that plan.
If you announced that you were going to assasinate the President, and then went out and bought a gun, and a bus ticket to D.C., and showed up outside the WhiteHouse with your gun, You would be arrested, and would most likely serve prison time whether you actually pointed the gun at the President or not. So then, the Cops WILL arrest you because you might commit a crime later in the day, and with good reason.
I don't like him either, Mark, But in this instance, I think he has a point.
And I don't think that we should stop with Chavez either. I think that Kim Jong Il is a good candidate for assassination, as well as Fidel Castro, and the President of Iran, Whatever-his-name-is.
Hugo Chavez was elected by the people of Venezuela. To put him in the same list with those dictators does the people of Venezuela a disservice.
President Bush DID say that Iraq, under Saddam, was a direct threat to this country via WMD. I remember it like it was yesterday. Because THAT is what tipped me to be for the war in Iraq. Bush & Co. made it sound like the missiles were in silos, pointed our way.
Boy, was I duped.
My position that we should remain there and finish the job -- help erect a democratic repuboic -- has NOTHING to do with the fact that the president allowed himself to be misled, and then misled the rest of us about it in the beginning. Or worse, that he just lied -- but I really don't believe that, since I think he is a good man, basically.
What Pat Robrertson said -- if Chavez were a real enemy of this country, which he is not -- would be fine for a politician to say, although even then it should give us all pause.
But for him, as so-called Christian leader, to advocate assassination is absolutely no better than what the Taliban or the towel-headed fanatics in Iraq espouse.
As an American, I'm a little embarrassed by what he said. As I Christian, I am majorly appalled.
My own thoughts, in more detail, are at my place under the post healined "To hell with Pat Robertson" and in the comments.
--ER
Whether the President was misled or not is a whole seperate issue.
What I was responding to was the assertion that he MALICIOUSLY LIED in order to drag an otherwise unwilling Country into a War for Oil, or Money.
I still contend that he did not do that.
I believe that the President is a good and moral man, who was trying to do what he thought was right, and that he never deserved the hatred an animosity that he has recieved over the past few years from the people who claim to stand for peace and love.
That's what I was saying...
And, ER, The Left in America does not even trust Americans to fairly elect leaders.
To say that questioning Chavez' ability to lead does a dis-service to the people of Venezuela puts an awful lot of faith in the Venezuelan election process.
I think it would be a whole lot easier to prove election fraud there than in Florida...
So why didn't we just put out a contract on Hussein? Seems like it would have saved a whole lot of lives. I know we tried it at least once with the missile strike on some hapless cafe in Baghdad. Sooner or later we may have actually hit the right eatery.
Sure we would have killed a few innocent Iraqi's, but it probably would have been fewer than the twenty four thousand we helped kill from March '03 to March '05.
As far as our country's credibility and respectability around the world go, I don't think it has anything to do with anyone exercising the right to speak freely. More likely it has to do with this administration's incompetent foreign policy.
Having made a muck up of that, the administration further demonstrated it's incompetence in waging war. And no I'm not berating the soldiers in the field or even the command structure. I'm talking about the way the defence department has constantly underestimated the enemy's capabilities and failure to adequatly support and supply the troops.
Speaking my mind isn't helping in any way that I know of to build and utilize car bombs.
But Robertson did not question Chavez's ability to lead. Robertson said he should be killed -- because Robertson, a righty (of sorts, weird sorts), doesn't like the fact that the duly elected president of Venezuela is a socialist.
That ain't right for a so-called Christian preacher. Period. And that's all I'm saying.
I think that Robertson only gives more ammunition to his critics every time he speaks. Even the highly conservative Christians I know are getting to hate the guy.
As far as assasinating foreign leaders - I'm all for it. But we better make damn sure that the guy is a real threat to our national security, not just a barrier to the oil trade.
Also, I don't think Chavez necesarrily has it in for the USofA; he's a lefty, and he has it in for the righty administration now with the reins. Big diff.
Cats, I completely and totally agree with you. Well stated.
ER, let me get this straight...The only reason that Chavez (the duly elected leader of Venezuela) is a problem at all is because Americans elected the wrong leader?
So even the Venezuela problem is President Bush's fault?
Carrier, and ER too, to some extent, The Islamic culture views compromise as weakness. The reason that America has been losing face around the world is that every Democrat President since Carter has REFUSED to deal decisively with threats to this country, from the Iran Hostage Crisis, to the First World Trade Center Bombing, to the U.S.S. Cole Bombing, Etc. and roughly half of the American Citizens go right on out and vote for another one every chance they get. When they lose, they stop at nothing to undermine and discredit, disparage, discourage and second guess the duly elected leaders who DO try to deal with threats to American interests.
The world sees this not as people trying to be reasonable, but as weakness. A weakness that the Terrorists we are fighting in Iraq right now have exploited to perfection. They are the only people that these protests are helping.
Every bad thing in the world is not the fault of George W. Bush.
The conditions which led up to the War and to the problems we are about to have with Venezuela were allowed to ooze and fester all through the Clinton years, while Clinton chased women, partied, and raised taxes.
That stuff does not inspire respect around the world.
Diplomacy isn't about compromise Tug. It's about working together to achieve a mutual understanding. This administration's idea of diplomacy is that if you don't understand us we'll bomb you into submission; that is decisive to be sure, but it isn't going to gain you any respect.
What I've really been wondering though is why we are in the Middle East at all. I'm fairly confident we wouldn't appreciate it if someone came to our shores taking it upon themselves to show us the proper way of leading our lives. What is it about us that makes us think we can do that to somebody else?
Sure I understand the oil thing. The modern world needs oil and along with the rest of the civilized world we are addicted to it. But it seems to me that the Arabs could probably pump out their own oil. If we are there only to provide stability and to ensure that oil continues flowing to the Western world, maybe we should seriously reconsider our stratedgy because it really doesn't seem to working too well.
And if it really isn't about the oil as you say, then maybe we should get the hell out as soon as possible. Spreading democracy and freedom is all well and good. The problem is the folks we are trying to spread it to don't seem to want it very much. A few do I suppose, but apparently not the majority of them. If it were just a few bad apples spoiling the lot, it seems that the idea would have taken hold over there by now.
I have to believe that the Arabs threaten us because they feel threatened by us. Moreover, perhaps it isn't just their way of life they see as being threatened, but possibly that the same perceived threat extends to their very faith. Wouldn't you like to know Tug, wouldn't you like to know why they feel so threatened by us? Wouldn't it be better to help them understand our intentions instead of just killing as many as we believe to be necessary?
Tuggy, I said nothing like the following: "The only reason that Chavez (the duly elected leader of Venezuela) is a problem at all is because Americans elected the wrong leader? So even the Venezuela problem is President Bush's fault?"
What I don't underastand is this: WHAT is the "problem" with Venezuela besides the fact that Hugo Chavez doesn't say "how high" when this country says "jump"?
let me just list a few points here:
1. a christian that calls for the death of an individual isn't much like a christian (didn't the Pharisees call for the death of Christ? hmmmm--oh, I'm not comparing Chavez to Christ, but back in time many people compared Lenin to him)
2. Bush lied. He told us the Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and he intended to us them on us. This total lie was the whole excuse for the Iraq war. Personally, I believe it is solid grounds for impeachment or ass rape, I'm not sure which.
3. You said, "What I do know is that Saddam Hussein was paying the families of suicide bombers $25,000 if they killed Americans anywhere in the world, and I assume that that applied if they killed us on our soil." What the fuck?!!! Please provide the source of this one. I will only accept academicly approved sources. don't gimme any paranoid trucker websites.
4. I don't like truckers. I say, "never trust a man with a meth twitch."
aloha and amen, Brother
Bloggin'. It's like keeping a diary everyone can read.
wow, "Richie", that was deep (it sunk beneath my wisdom like a stone--Cohen, sorta).
was it necessary?
Dear "Tug":
today I tried to apply the electrodes (as in shock treatment) to the temples of an individual suffering from a tragic case narrow mind(less)edness. as yet I'm not sure if any wideningness resulted. most likely I just created steam. I am forced to ask, "was it necessary?" or better yet, "was it worth it?"
adios and aloha and amen
Oh great. I have picked up another screwball fan...
yeah, isn't it great! makes me feel like Chavez. eh, mr. robertson?
Okay, Screwball, Ask and you shall recieve...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,48822,00.html
No, Wait, that's Fox News...THEY can't be believed...
How about CBS news?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/03/world/main505316.shtml
Wait...Didn't CBS news recently run a story about the President which they based on phony documents? They can't be trusted either...
How about this one?
http://www.husseinandterror.com/
No, they could be a front for some right wing propaganda group...
How about http://www.dailygamecock.com/media/paper247/news/2004/11/17/News/Officials.Say.Saddam.Moved.Money.To.Pay.Bombers.Families-807496.shtm
Dag nabbit, that's a COLLEGE newspaper...No telling WHAT those wacky professors are teaching those people...
Maybe this one?
http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/middleeastreports/s_273762.html
No, that one won't work either. Pittsburg is in Pennsylvania, where they had all of that voter fraud during the last election which went un-noticed by the press...The Pittsburg Press CERTAINLY can't be trusted...
I GOT IT!! The perfect source!! You CERTAINLY cannot doubt the credibility of THIS source!!
http://english.pravda.ru/world/2002/08/15/34593.html
Pravda! There you go. I found ONE academically (correct spelling) approved source for you.
Do your homework before you come in here popping off...
Screwball is out there...isn't that great? 'Fringers' like to shake it up. Like you Tug he is right on the edge. Let's see if he can spout as well as you do.
I can tell by your inability to spell, screwball, that you are still young, and you were educated in the public (Government) school system.
Don't worry, you will grow up someday...
okay, the link you provided is for a forum. that doesn't count. what I recommend is maybe going to a decent news bank. forums are about as empty as . . . well, a blog. you see, any dimwit can write a blog or post in a forum.
but, hats off to you for trying.
How was that, Carrier??
CBS news is a FORUM?
That's news to me...
a typo isn't a measure of intelligence or age for that matter.
jeez, fool. you discredited all your links but the last one. so, I went there.
are you drunk?
Here's one to look up.
www.iraqbodycount.net
Well, I took it in the context of the rest of your comments...
You sound to me like you are about 18-20, something like that.
Winston Churchill once said "If you are twenty, and Conservative, you have no heart. If you are FORTY, and are Liberal, You have no BRAIN."
His words, not mine...
Look, you don't know me. don't call me "fool." If you cannot understand what I was doing, then maybe you should go read someone else's blog. Try to keep up.
If you can't run with the big dogs, stay under the porch with the puppies...
I guess Churchill never anticipated Noam Chomsky.
You know how it is Tug, you're very passionate. Nothing wrong with that. It's why I like reading your posts. All you have to do is write a word or two and it snowballs.
Carrier, why is the Left so obsessed with death, and failure?
I have never understood that...
Wow, I can't type this fast!
fine, your blog your rules. we shall abandon the rules of debate. is that your choice?
Thanks for the compliment, Carrier.
I like your comments as well. Whether I agree with them or not, they are always well thought out.
Unlike some of my other commentators...
Dude, you attacked me. not the other way around...
refer back to your comment about cbsnews. that was a little agressive and jocular, if you know what I mean.
it left me needing to clarify.
hey, did you read the comment I left on your Sheehan post? I'm proud of myself--sheer poetry.
Like I said, you don't know me. Carrier would have understood that comment, in it's entirety.
Wouldn't you, Carrier?
Yep. You poetically spouted the same nonsense that all the rest of the dummies who don't get it spout. Congratulations!
tug and carrier
the new hannity and colmes
actually, I'm familar with carrier and I both agree with and respect his opinions . . . mostly. sometimes he worries me. (a bit cold, he is)
Well then, we agree on something! We both like Carrier.
World Peace is achievable after all!
actually, the problem is that you don't get it. hence the fact that you called us a "dummies." that's ad hominem. not the best defense for a faulty opinion.
see, it as I said, steam. I only can create steam here.
You're not even doing that.
What you are doing in here is wasting my time and yours.
yeah, but a least there is some entertainment value.
anyways, I'm done until your next post. if I push it anymore I will probably get deleted.
so,
adios and farewell
I will miss your pretty eyes
Bye.
Good stuff Tug. I got the Rather thing, but the story was only handed to them. Their (CBS) big mistake was shabby follow up. That and maybe they were a little overzealous. But it wasn't as if they wrote the screenplay.
That's old news though. I hope Screwball hangs around for awhile. After all, the Supreme court nominations are coming up. I enjoy a good old fashion shoot'em up western now and then.
Falcons are up.
Can't stand Colms, the guy is a weasel on the Fox network. Weasels are rodents. Blew one in half once while I was hunting ducks. Not many ducks flying that day I guess.
The only question here is whose time was worst wasted by that one.
Robertson's a damn fool. I like the fact that even the far right seems to be disavowing him, based on what I've seen.
I'm fairly certain that the coup that nearly befell the Chavez administration a couple years back was on the U.S.'s watch, as was the failure of their bank system, shortly before. If anyone out there thinks that the U.S. government never does that, I would ask them to revisit all that mess they threw down against JFK in previous posts. In that case, pursuing certain partisan ends, you all admitted that presidents sometimes do that. If that degenerate Catholic can do it, I imagine some lilywhite Protestant can, too.
And let's be sure: just because we don't like someone in the same hemisphere doesn't mean we automatically get to kill them. The Monroe Doctrine ain't that large. Especially if the person in question isn't a threat to us, at all.
Not that that's stopped us before, mind you.
Hey-50 comments! Me and my little home recipe site never get this much interest from intelligent, well-spoken individuals!
Wow! 51 comments....er, 52, now..from just 2 words! I gotta try that!
Hey, I got dang near that man with ONE word: "Discuss." ;-)
Tug, you never come visit me anymore. I am HURT. I value yer voice.
--ER
ER, I can barely type fast enough to keep up with my OWN comments page anymore, much less visit other people's sites...
I will visit you before I go to bed tonite, as well as Mark's.
I like you guys. I will never forget about you...no matter HOW popular I get!
Death is what this war is about Tug. It isn't some abstract thing happening a long way from home to people we don't know. The son of a school chum of mine died in Iraq last winter and his wife was seven months pregnant. My oldest son is his age and went to school with him. This is a small town of three thousand people and really hit hard.
Some poor kid lying beside a road under the hot desert sun with his life spilling out onto the sand. It's war. Those 2400 people that died on Sept. 11. Flying or working oblivious to the fact that soon they would be buried and crushed to death under a mountain of rubble. War is death.
But we're caught up in a cycle of killing each other, and if that cycle is ever going to stop we have to be the one's to stop it. I don't think we can get there by continuing the way we're going.
I'm not foolish enough to think we can talk our way out of it every time. And I know that we can't just appease people with promises of goodwill. War is always an option, but it is never the best solution. I believe we could have done things not only differently but better.
By the way I don't hate George Bush, although I know it's fashionable on the right to claim all dems do. I don't know the guy personally, maybe you could have a beer with him and talk about football and bicycles and the history of salt. But only if he knew you supported him I think. He doesn't appear to be the kind of guy that likes to hear an opposing view.
His policies are what I hate. I don't like it anymore than you do when our country fails at something. But I especially don't like it when it fails at something I don't think we should have gotten into in the first place.
The young man's name was Dave Mitts Jr., I wouldn't make that up.
Carrier, I am sorry for your loss, and the loss that your town felt, but the young man that you are talking about did volunteer to join the Armed Services. I would think that he believed in what he was doing over there, and I do to.
Iraq will be better off when this job is done than when it was started. The Iraqis know this, the soldiers know this, and I know this.
I refuse to sell the U.S. short when it comes to something as important as this.
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